does Sundering mod actually work? - Guild Wars Forums

dagrdagaz · Apr 13, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I ask this cos i just tested a Sundering bow mod, without any noticable dmg difference.

I used the exact same bow with and without a Sundering bow mod on the 60, 80 and 100 Armor test dummies in Isle of the Nameless.

There was no damage difference (per dummy

), on avarage, at all.
Not even for the 80 and 100 Armor dummy.

So.....did i do something wrong, or does the Sundering (bow) mod not work ?!

Archress Shayleigh · Apr 13, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

It only works with regular attacks. Not on skills. Keep attacking, you should see a few things happening:
Basic Damage,
Critical Hits
The "Sundering" mod working.

Anakita Snakecharm · Apr 13, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

It works for what it does, but it's not the most dramatic mod possible.

A sundering weapon gives you a 10-20% chance of having an additional 20% armour penetration added to attacks. I'm not sure how many test dummies you tried with each, but that's only 1 or 2 in 10 odds. Meaning you could damage quite a few without seeing it if you get unlucky hits.

Armour penetration means that a certain amount of the armour is ignored in calculating the damage. Depending on the amount you're actually hitting for, that may not look significantly different at the upper armour levels. Added percentage of total damage depends on the total damage in the first place, and damage amounts listed on weapons are averages anyway. It's not an exact science.

So... yes, it works, but you have to have reasonable expectations for how much it can help you. It won't do as much damage as Vampiric-- it just also has fewer downsides.

dagrdagaz · Apr 13, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

I didnt use any skills, only the bow attack.

Avarage total damage, no noticable differerence.

Max damage bow, 10 Markmanship. "Killed" dummies several times for an avarage.
The 100 Armor dummy took me avarage 39 bow atttacks to "kill", with or without Sundering mod.

I was testing it with a secondary Ranger char, does it only work for primary rangers ?

Has anyone actually (also) tested a Sundering mod?

I am aware the xtra dmage may be little if it works, but if the xtra dmage is unnoticable, the Sundering mod is still useless imo.

Beta Sprite · Apr 13, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

It will work with any profession, as it is a property of the weapon.

If you want to consistently see your bow doing more damage, I would suggest a Vamp mod.

Dre · Apr 13, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Sprite

It will work with any profession, as it is a property of the weapon.

If you want to consistently see your bow doing more damage, I would suggest a Vamp mod.

this

Sundering is decent on scythes, but that's about it

Rhamia Darigaz · Apr 13, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Has anyone actually (also) tested a Sundering mod?

no, you are the only person in the 5 years of guild wars who has ever tested the sundering mod. obviously you have uncovered a major flaw in the game mechanics that nobody has ever noticed or even cared to test.

seriously: your method of testing is just bad. you're testing the average values of two random functions with insufficient sample sizes for the tiny expected difference when you should just be looking at sunder crits and noticing that they're bigger than normal crits.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 13, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

sundering mods and vamp mods ftw...

Eragon Zarroc · Apr 13, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

poor testing. it works. *sigh*

MagmaRed · Apr 13, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Bows deal damage in a range of 15-28. So if you hit at 15 you know you didn't trigger the Sundering mod, but if you hit at 28, was it a max damage hit, or less than that with a Sundering bonus? In short, it is not possible to tell due to the number of variables. So, to test, you only have one option, use a bow with no damage RANGE. Wintergreen bows would work, since you can add a Sundering string to it, and it will always do 15 damage. This way, when you see a number other than 15, you know it to be either a Critical Hit, or the Sundering bonus.

dagrdagaz · Apr 13, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Sunder crits r bigger then normal crits, Rhamia sais.
That means MORE dmage right.
So, total avarage damage should be more with sundering hits right.

Not usefull, MagmaRed, a more dmage hit being either a normal crit hit or sundering hit.
Then i STILL dont know if it was a sundering hit.

I killed the 100 armor dummy 3 times with avarage 39 bow hits, so thats 117 total.
So, 117 hits isnt enough to notice the xtra damage from Sundering?!

Dzjudz · Apr 13, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

A bow does 21.5 dmg on average to a 60 armor target. Against a 100 armor target that is halved: 10.75dmg on average

An average sundering hit on a 100 armor target would be 15.2. This hit would occur an average of 1 times out of 5.

Therefore:
Average damage on 100 al target without sundering mod: 10.75 dmg
Average damage on 100 al target with sundering mod: 11.64 dmg

These are without critical hits by the way.

The practice targets have 480 health.

Without critical hits, the average hits needed to take down the 100 al target:
Without sundering mod: 45 hits
With sundering mod: 42 hits

Of course, critical hits and the amount of hits needed to get to the accurate average damage will mess up your testing. In any case, 117 hits is probably not enough to notice a considerable difference, no.

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

I didnt use any skills, only the bow attack.

Avarage total damage, no noticable differerence.
\

This is key.

A vamp mod is going to add about 2.5 DPS to a short/flatbow with no IAS. In general, Sundering is going to be less DPS than that. In terms of averages it is a very small difference, and you'd need a lot of trials to eliminate sample error if you're just going to look at averages.

Take an assassin with several crit-boosting skills and try hitting a target. You'll know a critical when you get energy return, and it should always be the same amount of damage, except sometimes it will be a larger number when you trigger sundering.

Popeye1906 · Apr 13, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Sunder crits r bigger then normal crits, Rhamia sais.
That means MORE dmage right.
So, total avarage damage should be more with sundering hits right.

Not usefull, MagmaRed, a more dmage hit being either a normal crit hit or sundering hit.
Then i STILL dont know if it was a sundering hit.

I killed the 100 armor dummy 3 times with avarage 39 bow hits, so thats 117 total.
So, 117 hits isnt enough to notice the xtra damage from Sundering?!

First thing, stop waisting your time hitting armor dummies and try testing on Master of dmg.

Secondly, if you want to test, do it like Magma suggested. Its the best way to see how often the sundering mods will trigger and for how much more it will hit.

MisterB · Apr 13, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Your testing is flawed. There are 3 random variables: the damage range of the weapon ([email protected] marksmanship before customize and inscription or inherent bonus), the chance for critical hit(varies based on several factors), and the chance for sundering hits. You can eliminate 2 of those variables by only recording the damage you deal from critical hits, because critical hits always deal the maximum damage of the weapon plus the additional critical hit damage. Critical hits result in a different hit animation than regular attacks.

edit: FoxBat's test is a good one. The energy gain for an Assassin may be easier to see. I use a texmod that displays a more pronounced effect for critical hits; that is also an option if you can't spot the normal critical animation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archress Shayleigh

It only works with regular attacks. Not on skills.

That is false. Sundering works on any attack, including attack skills. It will not increase the bonus damage from attack skills since that ignores armor anyhow. Sundering affects the base damage of the weapon; perhaps that is what you mean.

Mervil · Apr 14, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I've been doing some testing on this sundering stuff for my own curiosity. I found something in the guildwikis that indicated (but did not explicity state) that sundering only affects the targets base armor, and NOT any armor bonuses (as would be granted with a shield or enchantment like Armor of Earth). However, in my testing, it would seem that armor penetration goes through ALL armor, bonuses included. Can anyone confirm or deny this conclusion?

Darth The Xx · Apr 15, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Sunder crits r bigger then normal crits, Rhamia sais.
That means MORE dmage right.
So, total avarage damage should be more with sundering hits right.

Not usefull, MagmaRed, a more dmage hit being either a normal crit hit or sundering hit.
Then i STILL dont know if it was a sundering hit.

I killed the 100 armor dummy 3 times with avarage 39 bow hits, so thats 117 total.
So, 117 hits isnt enough to notice the xtra damage from Sundering?!

3 kills is not statistically significant nor is 117 attacks.

Sundering does 20% Armour Penetration not 20% damage bonus. On a 60 armour target you're going to hit it as if its a 48 armour target which is roughly a 23% damage bonus.

Assuming you hit max damange for 28, 28 x 1.23 = 34.44

So this is only a 6 damage bonus assuming you hit on the high end.

on the low end, 15 x 1.23 = 18.45

Average Bow Damage = 21.5

21.5 x 1.23 = 26.445

Can't be bothered doing the numbers for other AR values.

So on Average you're looking at a 5 damage bonus on a 60 AR target 20% of the time. Which translates into an average of a bonus 1 Damage per hit due to the sundering mod (assuming the bow isn't customised.) Even if the bow was customised a 20% damage boost which would increase the damage done to 1.2 bonus damage per hit on average.

Point being the reason you don't notice a difference is because the damage bonus is so pathetically small.

Moral of the story Sundering mods blow, use Vampiric Mods for bonus damage, they provide a steady +3-5 damage boost on EVERY attack regardless of armour, its like having a mini barbs on your target 100% of the time. Also this damage isn't prottable.

Allamorph · Apr 15, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

In summary: it does work but the effects are so unnoticeable so as to make its function worthless, and in effect it does not work.

/thread

dagrdagaz · Apr 15, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16

tnx for the replies.

Thats my conclusion to, the xtra damage from sundering is so little to really notice or be usefull.

imnotyourmother · Apr 15, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

EXACTLY. Sundering Sucks.

let me explain, (takes a second but I will get to the point)

I play Presearing alot. There are NO Strength Skills in Pre.

The Strengeth "attribute line" gives a Warrior armor penetration when using attack skills.

So does SUNDERING = Armor Penetration work when using attack skills.

You might argue this or not but as the OP stated there was no real difference. People just like to read + 20% armor pen every 5 hits. In actual FACT this is not so unless you are using skills.

Try the experiment again but this time, use "Read the Wind".

Interestingly enough, there IS a BONUS SUNDERING LONGBOW! You can get this bow from the GW:EN PreRelease and equip it on your toon in PRESEARING - as I did on my WAR.

Because the max damage of the Bow is 28 and the sword is only 22 (Glacial blade in presearing) I ALWAYS run RANGER SKILLS on my war in pre.

SUNDERING bow without "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 3 hits. Sundering bow WITH "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 2 hits cause a SKILL is being used.

That sundering bow with read the wind is Fantastic.

However, I would rather use Mark of Rodgort and a FIREY Bow in post and then use the Poision Arrow for Max Degen in Post.

So Sundering in post.. Sucks unless you are using a skill.

I know, there is someone going to do more math and say I am wrong but the OP is right. Sundering Mod at Max = More Money = Wasted Bow String

Apr 13, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54	#1
dagrdagaz Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NL Profession: E/N	does Sundering mod actually work? I ask this cos i just tested a Sundering bow mod, without any noticable dmg difference. I used the exact same bow with and without a Sundering bow mod on the 60, 80 and 100 Armor test dummies in Isle of the Nameless. There was no damage difference (per dummy ), on avarage, at all. Not even for the 80 and 100 Armor dummy. So.....did i do something wrong, or does the Sundering (bow) mod not work ?!

Apr 13, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14	#4
dagrdagaz Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NL Profession: E/N	I didnt use any skills, only the bow attack. Avarage total damage, no noticable differerence. Max damage bow, 10 Markmanship. "Killed" dummies several times for an avarage. The 100 Armor dummy took me avarage 39 bow atttacks to "kill", with or without Sundering mod. I was testing it with a secondary Ranger char, does it only work for primary rangers ? Has anyone actually (also) tested a Sundering mod? I am aware the xtra dmage may be little if it works, but if the xtra dmage is unnoticable, the Sundering mod is still useless imo. Last edited by dagrdagaz; Apr 13, 2010 at 05:33 PM // 17:33..

Apr 13, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11	#2
Archress Shayleigh Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Guild Hall Profession: R/	It only works with regular attacks. Not on skills. Keep attacking, you should see a few things happening: Basic Damage, Critical Hits The "Sundering" mod working.

Apr 13, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13	#3
Anakita Snakecharm Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The Shining Blade Camp Guild: Nouvel Ordre de Phoenix [MJM] Profession: R/Mo	It works for what it does, but it's not the most dramatic mod possible. A sundering weapon gives you a 10-20% chance of having an additional 20% armour penetration added to attacks. I'm not sure how many test dummies you tried with each, but that's only 1 or 2 in 10 odds. Meaning you could damage quite a few without seeing it if you get unlucky hits. Armour penetration means that a certain amount of the armour is ignored in calculating the damage. Depending on the amount you're actually hitting for, that may not look significantly different at the upper armour levels. Added percentage of total damage depends on the total damage in the first place, and damage amounts listed on weapons are averages anyway. It's not an exact science. So... yes, it works, but you have to have reasonable expectations for how much it can help you. It won't do as much damage as Vampiric-- it just also has fewer downsides.

Apr 13, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32	#5
Beta Sprite Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Madison, WI Profession: R/	It will work with any profession, as it is a property of the weapon. If you want to consistently see your bow doing more damage, I would suggest a Vamp mod.

Apr 13, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14	#8
Terrible Surgeon Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2009 Guild: hopper Profession: A/	sundering mods and vamp mods ftw...

Apr 13, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35	#9
Eragon Zarroc Atra estern?? ono thelduin Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Madness Incarnate Guild: [Duo] Profession: W/P	poor testing. it works. sigh

Apr 13, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44	#10
MagmaRed Furnace Stoker Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Our Crabs Know True [LOVE] Profession: R/	Bows deal damage in a range of 15-28. So if you hit at 15 you know you didn't trigger the Sundering mod, but if you hit at 28, was it a max damage hit, or less than that with a Sundering bonus? In short, it is not possible to tell due to the number of variables. So, to test, you only have one option, use a bow with no damage RANGE. Wintergreen bows would work, since you can add a Sundering string to it, and it will always do 15 damage. This way, when you see a number other than 15, you know it to be either a Critical Hit, or the Sundering bonus.

Apr 13, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39	#11
dagrdagaz Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NL Profession: E/N	Sunder crits r bigger then normal crits, Rhamia sais. That means MORE dmage right. So, total avarage damage should be more with sundering hits right. Not usefull, MagmaRed, a more dmage hit being either a normal crit hit or sundering hit. Then i STILL dont know if it was a sundering hit. I killed the 100 armor dummy 3 times with avarage 39 bow hits, so thats 117 total. So, 117 hits isnt enough to notice the xtra damage from Sundering?!

Apr 13, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53	#12
Dzjudz Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz	A bow does 21.5 dmg on average to a 60 armor target. Against a 100 armor target that is halved: 10.75dmg on average An average sundering hit on a 100 armor target would be 15.2. This hit would occur an average of 1 times out of 5. Therefore: Average damage on 100 al target without sundering mod: 10.75 dmg Average damage on 100 al target with sundering mod: 11.64 dmg These are without critical hits by the way. The practice targets have 480 health. Without critical hits, the average hits needed to take down the 100 al target: Without sundering mod: 45 hits With sundering mod: 42 hits Of course, critical hits and the amount of hits needed to get to the accurate average damage will mess up your testing. In any case, 117 hits is probably not enough to notice a considerable difference, no.

Apr 14, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05	#16
Mervil Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Wherever Nick the Traveler is Guild: Guardians of Light [GoL] Profession: W/	I've been doing some testing on this sundering stuff for my own curiosity. I found something in the guildwikis that indicated (but did not explicity state) that sundering only affects the targets base armor, and NOT any armor bonuses (as would be granted with a shield or enchantment like Armor of Earth). However, in my testing, it would seem that armor penetration goes through ALL armor, bonuses included. Can anyone confirm or deny this conclusion?

Apr 15, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19	#18
Allamorph Academy Page Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The Basement Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] Profession: E/Me	In summary: it does work but the effects are so unnoticeable so as to make its function worthless, and in effect it does not work. /thread

Apr 15, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16	#19
dagrdagaz Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NL Profession: E/N	tnx for the replies. Thats my conclusion to, the xtra damage from sundering is so little to really notice or be usefull.

Apr 15, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06	#20
imnotyourmother Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: in a house Guild: The Knitters Guild Profession: W/R	EXACTLY. Sundering Sucks. let me explain, (takes a second but I will get to the point) I play Presearing alot. There are NO Strength Skills in Pre. The Strengeth "attribute line" gives a Warrior armor penetration when using attack skills. So does SUNDERING = Armor Penetration work when using attack skills. You might argue this or not but as the OP stated there was no real difference. People just like to read + 20% armor pen every 5 hits. In actual FACT this is not so unless you are using skills. Try the experiment again but this time, use "Read the Wind". Interestingly enough, there IS a BONUS SUNDERING LONGBOW! You can get this bow from the GW:EN PreRelease and equip it on your toon in PRESEARING - as I did on my WAR. Because the max damage of the Bow is 28 and the sword is only 22 (Glacial blade in presearing) I ALWAYS run RANGER SKILLS on my war in pre. SUNDERING bow without "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 3 hits. Sundering bow WITH "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 2 hits cause a SKILL is being used. That sundering bow with read the wind is Fantastic. However, I would rather use Mark of Rodgort and a FIREY Bow in post and then use the Poision Arrow for Max Degen in Post. So Sundering in post.. Sucks unless you are using a skill. I know, there is someone going to do more math and say I am wrong but the OP is right. Sundering Mod at Max = More Money = Wasted Bow String